Mixing brands, does it matter?

[SPI]

I recently went on a service call to a new home, (1 year old), reporting a leak in the basement ceiling.

Upon arriving, the home owner directed me to the location of the leak and there I saw that she had lost the ceiling in a closet under the main floor tub/shower unit, a bucket on the floor was catching a slow drip from an elbow feeding the hot side of the tub faucet.

I recognized the tubing right away, Wirsbo/Uponor, and thought this will be a snap, even though the original plumber had used crimp rings instead of the expansion fittings and rings, I'm tooled for this brand only and was relieved.

But, upon further examination I discovered that the riser to the faucet was in fact a different brand, Watts, there went my easy fix! I looked further and found another brand, Zurn, and thought to myself, this is a new home? I found even another brand for the main service coming into the home!

Unfortunately I had to inform the home owner I wasn't tooled for the "brands" of tubing used in her plumbing system, but I just placed an order for a tool that would do the job. Even though she seemed a bit put-out she agreed to be patient while I awaited the arrival of the new tool.

A couple days earlier, using the charts I found here,  http://www.pexinfo.com/ , I discovered the Sioux Chief crimper should be a good choice for a generic crimping tool for multiple PEX brands, at least I was hoping. I had just started doing research on different brands and systems in anticipation of a situation like this service call. I do mostly new construction work, taking on service calls only as they come in. I hadn't felt the need, until now, to gear up for other brands and systems for PEX.

The tool arrived and I returned to the home with multiple PEX brands. I made the repair only to find another leak up the line. The original plumber had been at the home months before to make a repair at the tub faucet and the hole in the sheet rock was still there. Sure enough, on the same line it was leaking at the connection to the faucet. Once the ring and tubing was cut free I discovered the fitting had been crushed to an oval shape with an inward crimp. I sweat a new fitting on pre bent copper tube and finished the repair.

The home owner was happy to finally have the leaking stopped but was concerned about the mixed brands of tubing in her new home. Even though I would never consider using multiple brands of tubing in a new home for the water piping, I explained to her that the tubing was compatible in size and it should be alright, however she may not have a warranty through either manufacturer due to the fact that most companies require that one uses only they're product as a system and not to mix with other brands.

I have a feeling I'll be visiting the neighborhood again because it seems the same plumber has plumbed several homes there. It would be one thing if this was an older home and had a remodel done, but being a new home, is using multiple brands of PEX wise?

[Couch]

Great topic! - though not easily answered!

    I am actually not surprised there would be 4 different brands of pex in a new home.  It was either the economics or the availibility that likely affected the decision more than any other factors.  Though most larger plumbing outfits would certainly use the same manufacturer throughout the entire home, that is not to say that a small-time plumber or homeowner would.   They would be more likely to obtain product from various sources (including online) to find the best price.  Or maybe they are having a hard time locating product altogether.  I have heard this complaint from many folks in my area - that a good selection of pex accesories is hard to find.  Couple that with the confusion surrounding the various pex systems currently on the market & the hodge-podge of mixed manufactures found at your local plumbing supply houses & I think it may explain at least part of the problem.

    Warranty is definitely an issue here as most all manufacturers will only stand behind a warranty if it is their product exclusively.  The problem we have with pex is one that I have noticed both locally & nationally.  Because of the rise in popularity of pex in the United States & Canada in the last 5 years, everyone & their brother is trying to get in on this lucrative market.  Thus, there are so many manufacturers producing pex nowadays & everyone has a slightly different system (at least in name).  Though the vast majority of pex tubing, fittings & rings are standardized, there are still just enough proprietary systems on the market (ex. Uponor & Kitec) that it contributes to a lot of confusion in the marketplace. 
     
      To make matters worse, it may be difficult to locate a supplier that carries all the same manufacturer of tubing, fittings, rings, & tools.  Pex is still new enough on the U.S. market that alot of large plumbing companies are leary to make the switch from copper - the standard for so many years.  It boils down to economics.  With the price of copper so volatile lately, we are seeing more & more plumbing companies considering the switch to pex.  But, because pex is still not widely utilized by plumbers nationwide, you will find that supply houses may not carry the best selection of pex fittings, tubing, & tools.  And the suppliers are probably just as confused as the plumbers about which system is the best to stock!  Alot of times it comes full circle back to cost.  Suppliers may buy their pex tubing from one manufacturer & then get there fittings from a different manufacturer based solely on cost.  There are now literally 100's of manufacturers in China & Korea producing pex tools, fittings, & tubing for the U.S. market.  Some of these items are branded under names like Zurn or Watts & others are unbranded.  My latest purchase of pex fittings (from a local supply house) came out of Korea.  The only stamping on the fittings was the ASTM standard & the word "Korea."

    SPI,  I know this really doesn't answer your question about whether or not brands should be mixed, but I don't really have an answer for you.  I have personally utilized pex products from various manufactures & have even mixed them on occasion without incident.  I may have a warranty issue down the road however?? 

     The question on brand mixing is likely to get even more attention in coming years as more & more pex systems make their way into the marketplace.  I guess you could argue that was one benefit of copper - the fact that it was always fairly standardized from the very beginning.  The future remains to be seen, but my guess is that this won't be the last project you run into & discover mixed pex brands!   Any other folks have a take on this???

Couch

[Mark]

Mixing BRANDS shouldn't be much of a concern, but mixing PEX connection SYSTEMS would be a concern. 

For instance, it may not work well if you used an Upanor/Wirsbo fitting with a standard PEX crimp ring connection.  Those fittings are designed for the Upanor/Wirsbo connection system, which uses an expansion tool to stretch the pipe over the fitting. 

Theoretically, any "standard" PEX fitting (ASTM F1807, I believe) will work well with any "standard" PEX pipe (ASTM F876 and F877?). 

 - Mark

[BritLeggett]

Both work very well and have been around since PEX began.

Thanks Brit Leggett

President of Sales

www.flairit.com
www.speedpush.com
www.pexconnection.com
www.radiantheating.com
www.britleggett.name

[demetir]

Hi,
We are redoing our whole house and want to put in a manifold.  We dont know where to buy the wirsbo valved manifold.  We can get the vanguard manifold, but we already bought the wirsbo tool because we like this method better.  Could we use the vanguard manifold with the rest of everything being wirsbo?  We do have two wirsbo aquacenter non valved manifolds.  How would we add valves to these?
Thanks

[Couch]

Let me take a stab at this.  If you use the Vangaurd manifold, you will have to make your pex connections to the manifold using crimp rings or cinch clamps instead of the expansion method.  The Wirsbo pex tubing should be the same inner and outer diameter as any standard pex tubing on the market.  The difference with Wirsbo (now Uponor) is the outside diameter of the brass fittings (which is larger than the standard pex fittings).  Hence the need for your expansion tool to expand the pex tubing over the fitting.  So, if you don't mind a different connection method at the manifold, the Vangaurd should work fine.  As far as adding valves to your Wirsbo manifolds, the only way I can see to accomplish this is to splice them in-line in the actual pex tubing right as it leaves the manifold.  Hope this helps.

Couch

[master plumber mark]

I look at it this way.....  i would not wish it on a dog
and it is a very shoddy way to treat someone.....

would you want to mix brands of pex in your own new home?


Would you like it if someone jack-legged in your plumbing system in your new home???

You got to be nuts to mix pexes in the first place or
you are such a tight wad that you simply dont care...

but if you are not careful it will come back to haunt you when
a pipe bursts and your busines sinsurance has to pay the bill...


and the only way to get yourself out of troubles fixing this type of mess
 is to carry a good assortment of   shark bite fittings in your truck


do onto others ....as you would like them ....to do unto you

[doiturself]

Another newbie here...

I have a Vanguard manifold and (mostly) Vanex tubing.  The local plumbing store in my small town ran out of Vanex and I had to use some Rehau.  Everything seems to be fine, no leaks after a year but now I'm finishing up the last bathroom and the Vanguard crimp tool that the local plumbing store lends out has disappeared.  I ordered a Vanguard crimp tool from Ferguson and they sent me a Zurn.  Can anyone tell me if the Zurn crimp tool is okay to use with Vanguard fittings/crimp rings?   

Thanks